Peskat:

I don't know where the idea started... I do believe the americans were the first to actually implement it... noone else probably thought it would work.

You know Peskat... this argument that communism was never applied on a democrat country comes strait from Marx... let me expound... Marx analysed what he called worker exploitation in the capitalist system in democracies... you are quite right that he thought liberal democracies were a requisit for the global revolution he predicted... his ideals of freedom, fraternity, etc... were pratically ours... however he was just a bad economist, social analyst, etc... he predicted that the constant oppression of the proletariat would make them rise in revolt... and there you'd have the end to capitalism... what actually happened was that under capitalism the proletariat mostly became burgeoise... ergo no revolution... (since then communist disguised as socialists have out of folly or mischief undertook a different tactic to make their utopian revolution happen... I call it swindling just so you know...)

So basically communism doesn't follow when democracies occur because so far we've been smart enough to see that there's an hidden trap in socialism and that capitalism is better. But do notice that in Europe we are very close to the edge... (actually investigate the political and economic history of New Zealand and Australia... I think but am not sure that you might have some counter examples to disprove your hypothesis there)


Now... if you look into it you'll see that the EU constitution is a socialist document... (even if other would be dictators will probly fight over who gets the reins) I can post a relevant analysis for you... the fact that socialists in power are as easily corrupted as other humans should be a warning to you to the effect of not allowing them to increase the state centralising power over economy or anything else... capitalism as an economic system favors personal responsability... in socialism eventually the rulers isolate themselves from that responsability... because we gave them the power to do so.

Socialism is just too risky... the state should be kept as out of social and economic issues as possible.
But we as individuals are always trying to pin the blame on the guy above... we forget about equality... we are the guy above.
[this is the paragraph I mention down]


As for preemption... it's under discussion... I have already stated repeatedly that there is a risk of it being claimed falsely... (not the case in Iraq) so... what exactly is your point there?


If you look closely you'll see in my penultimate paragraph the same sort of theme that's present in Wuilios second post... which he claims to better express his point and which I aplaud... but you seem to prefer the first... which did not impress me... so I'll comment it (sorry wuil ;) I wasn't going to...)


Basically you seem to prefer the despair that seeps through in wuilios first post than the answer he points in the second... I know very well the kind of angst that attacks us in this age (bio and historical)... your return to mother nature is basically a milder version of suicide... go ahead if you want to but don't carry me with you... I may eventually kill all life and destroy the Earth... but I will keep trying to progress and improve my life and that of those I love... from the second post I believe Wuil will as well... I have felt that same despair many times before so I certainly understand his feelings when he posted the first, I respected it... I have also read your lyrics peskat and I know you do as well... we're all just human see...

Call me a positivist because I believe in the possibility of humanity improving, albeit slowly, with time... through science, education, improved morality... (eugenics? robotics?) whatever... when I look at history I see the same humans that crucified Christ... the same humans that lived in caves and probably already killed their neighbour then... but I do see progress...

Maybe I'm an idealist for still believing that out of personal will and action we can make some difference in the world at large... maybe not me... but perhaps Bush... I do believe what's happening in the ME is a large step in the right direction, which is of more and more liberty, for more and more people... frankly when I feel that some people I care about are not just turning their backs but almost trying to stop this change I understand what a liberal despises in conservatives...

PS: Wuil... I've never had any faith about the true motives underlying any human's actions... we only shine at best a quarter of the time and there's really as much of dark inside... but when you see someone acting and actually changing things for the better... that has some value of it's own even if his motives were not those... in Iraq I think they were... although there were subtleties... there are always in fact... isnt's that so? ;)